503TSX

Alright, before you all flame me, or kill me for posting this here, please realize I have worked on many cars in the years, and maintain my vehicle well. I am merely posting here to help any and all owners of a 2.4L timing chain motor.

This problem started at 54k miles and 4 years, 5 months of ownership.
I got an oil change, filled up the gas, then I got a trouble code the next day. Performed the obvious, code P0341 CMP sensor out of range.
So, I checked the oil, good oil, but decided to change it myself (from the oil change place) again just to be sure. oil checked out fine with no clumps or discoloration. checked the sensors, nothing looked damaged.

So... went and got it diagnosed, since money doesn't go on trees, I told them what I know, and asked them to find what they can in about an hour. They informed me that most likely the problem was arising from bad CMP sensors ( on the driver side of the motor 2 sensors $85 ea) so I replaced them. After I replaced the sensors, the problem came back, but instead of the code going away when the engine warmed up, the code stayed on no matter what. Got the local honda shop to reset (reteach) the CMP phase to the ECU did not help. the fix for making the problem worse was to put the old sensors back in. then the code went away when the vehicle warmed up.

Since temp seemed to be an issue, I went and talked to more people. Seems that temperature would be a possible electrical/or mechanical problem in my experiences. Of course, it could also be a cold emissions program problem with the car/ecu. Pulled the valve cover head off, inspected the reluctor wheels for the intake and exhaust hot and cold, no noticable difference in the distance to the sensors. Inspected th VTC actuator and tested in the car (apply 60psi to the actuator in the port and it will 'unlock') Whil I was in there, inspected the chain tension that I could see and it had no play.

Put everything back together, and still had the code. decided to go ahead and order more parts based on results. replaced the VTC strainer assy, the VTC oil actuator, and the VTEC strainer since help sources suggested that if all else is good, it's probably something with the oil delivery system to the VTC system. After all that was replaced, the code went away for about 2 weeks.

2 months after the initial code, $300 in labor(Troubleshooting etc), $450 in parts later the code returns. Last resort is the timing chain/tensioner/guides.
Went to the dealership, and blah blah.... service guy says it's probably a sensor, told him i replaced, he says probably oil delivery... whooptee not that. then he tells me that if that doesn't fix it the root cause is usually a stretched chain because I missed an oil change so it wears out the guides and worn out guides cause excessive wear on the chain. Of course, I did all my own oil changes at 5k miles with full synthetic oil, and never went more than .5 quart low (engine burnoff)

Soooo... went to order the parts again $370. Parts arrived the next day and the d**n car wouldn't start. So we pushed the car into the garage, and got to work. Sure enough, the chain was so stretched that you could have removed 4 links from the chain just to make it the same length. Also found that the intake cam had skipped 4 teeth and the exhaust had skipped 7. Tensioner was fully exteneded and the teflon guides were in good shape.

Soo the rebuild details. there are lots of different length bolts on the cover, so keep them in order. the crank is a major PITA to get off. You will need to buy a specialty crank holder socket it is a reverse 40mm socket with an offset for the breaker. I used the A arm to hold the crank breaker, and had to remove the front bumper so we could pull on the crank bolt breaker without an extension (broke 2 1/2" drive extensions removing it and a 500ft/lb impact gun just makes noise) estimated ~1000ft/lbs of torque on the bolt by the way. the only other problem is you will need a torx bit to remove the tensioner arm guide for the chain. Only took about 8 hours total for rebuild. the chain has off colored links to ensure that the chain is placed right. Also be very careful when removing the old gasket material as your oil pan is open below.

Parts replaced after all was done: CMP exhaust and intake sensors(replaced again after the work), VTC solenoid replaced, VTC strainer replaced, Valve cover gasket replaced, VTC cam actuator replaced, Chain replaced, tensioner replaced, Both teflon guides replaced. Checked the oil pump and chain. Both were good and functioning properly.

The aftermath: Cylinder 2 has a pretty good leak to thru the exhaust valves (probably tapped the piston) and has lost 15% compression. Cylinder 1 lost 10% compression. The buttometer tells me that the car is running okay, just lost maybe 10HP, as it can still pull me back into the seat nicely, but you can hear the valves against the walls in the drive thru.

The lesson: The one thing I should have checked was the access port on the timing chain cover. It is about an inch above the crank just to the rear of the car. 3 10mm bolts and some hondabond hold it on. This will give you access to the tensioner assy, and tell you how much the chain is stretched. a new one is only pushed out about 1/2 of an inch and a fully extended one is about 2.5inches give or take.

I checked with a buddy that works for acura and they would have most likely followed the same troubleshooting for that code and the bill would have been over 3grand. Just a warning, I would check that tensioner at least every 25k miles since you just have to remove the tire, it's non invasive, and it can save you a ton of heartache and trouble.

Timeline: the code started in early September at 54k miles, and the damage occurred Mid november at 56k miles. so from first warning, it took less than 2k miles and about 2 months to damage the engine. No other codes came up during the entire time. My next saving is for a valve job..... sigh.

Good luck to everyone else and I hope you don't ever have this problem. I have some serious issues with a car that stretches timing chains this quickly when my previous 4 hondas wen't 100k plus on a mere belt while still looking good after all that...

godfather2

holy cow, sorry about your troubles

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the info. Was the engine making any noise as a warning sign of the timing chain problem?

nbtx

This is not typical wear - do you or your friends have any clue what the cause was?
What kind of oil was used, and how often was it changed? Did you see any other abnormal wear? Does the engine have normal oil pressure?

You should contact Acura and donate the worn chain to their engineers for analysis. And Acura
should have done a goodwill repair with that mileage and age.

curls

I agree with nbtx - Acura should have goodwilled this, but it doesn't seem like you really pursued this avenue strongly. After having been through a massive headache to have my engine replaced via warranty near the end of the warranty period, I know how frustrating it can get.

I'd really like to know the answer to JTso's question though. If there was ANY warning sign aside from a DTC, such as an audible indicator of a problem, please let us know.

All the best and thanks for the great (albeit unfortunate) write-up.

503TSX

The only problem I could see is that it was having a slightly harder time starting. I attributed this to the colder weather we had been recieving.

I had pursued a good will effort from the dealership and was informed that I would need all the service records that were done. Since I had performed all the oil changes myself for the first 30k miles or so I didn't have the records, I also did the tranny flush, and power steering flush myself. I was using mobil1 full synthetic oil 10/30. when I went to the conventional (had a kid, single father 50% of the week and work 13 hours a day the other 50%) oil, I did it every 2500 instead of 5k. Had all the record from that, but they weren't too pleased with that bit of information.

Of course you realize that Acura won't help you unless you have a service invoice, which means that I would have had to pay the dealership for a full troubleshooting, which they quoted over 4 hours for the full workup, not including any parts or install, etc... I went back and forth for a while, but finally gave up and realized that Acura really doesn't seem to care a lot whether or not I'm happy since the car lasted thru it's warranty period, and I didn't take the car to the dealership for all of my service work.

Either way, I'm a bit jaded by the new Acura's and the Toyota/Lexus may cost a bit more, but have very good reliability, and more importantly, non inteference engines. I had a 2003 Honda Accord that lasted 8500 miles before it needed new valves due to a backfiring issue that honda could not reproduce. it got traded in at 9k. Needless to say, I've lost a good bit of confidence in the reliability of Hondas.

I agree that it's unusual wear, but the guides were fine, telling me that the tensioner was working properly, and the VTC Actuator was working fine as well. The tensioner is oil pressure based, but I have never had a code or any problems with the oil pressure in the car.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The problem is a bit unusual as not even a timing belt would stretch that much with those mileage. You mentioned the CMP code would go away after the engine is warmed up and you were using 10/30 oil. It's hard to say if the heavier weight oil plays a role or not, since the recommended oil is 5/30 and 5/30 flows better during cold start.

LukeaTron

This is really unfortunate but interesting at the same time. So you've got no clue how the chain stretched? That's a huge amount of stretch for that type of chain. Could you tell where the extra room came from? Were the pins loose in the holes? I can't imagine the plates themselves stretched. What are your driving habits?

Also, any chance you've got a picture of that access plate you were talking about? I'd like to take a peek at my chain one of these days but it doesn't appear all that accessible.

moda_way

After my water pump failure, I did talk to my mechanic, former Acura mechanic, and he mentioned some of the same things. The only time he saw timing chain issues were on motors that had poor oil changes. I'm willing to bet that the incorrect weight of oil created a starve situation in this instance. Unfortunate for sure.

LukeaTron

The slight increase in oil weight does not seem like it could be enough on it's own to cause there to be a starvation. Further, I would think damage like that would take some time to develop, particularly if it is distributed across the entire chain. My gut says there's more to it than the oil weight, though it very may have contributed.

503TSX

agreed, I went with the 10-30 initially because at the time, the 5-30 was not available when I bought the car except for conventional oil. Since about 30k it's had the 5w30 because i had my daughter and don't have time to do it myself. I've done my share of stoplight flooring and playing with the VTEC, but even with the Civic and Accord, never had a belt strip at 50k. I saw a bit of slack in the pin holes, but nothing stood out on the chain.

I agree that 5/30 would flow better during a cold start, and maybe i'm just oldschool, but the cold weight is more pertinant during very cold starts. We don't get much weather below say 40 around here in oregon, so I'd be very dissapointed if that caused the issue.

Either way, i've heard lots of people say that it's due to poor oil changes etc. But also considering Acuras manual recommends oil changes at 10k miles and filter changes at 20k miles, they should be a bit responsible IMO. I figured 5k per full synthetic is good enough, but apparently it wasn't.

It wouldn't surprise me if more people start getting failures at around 100k for the chain. the way the chain is oiled is fairly poor IMO. hmm... i just had an epiphany that may have contributed.

So here is the situation: the oil pump chain goes into the oil pan. from what i can see, the oil chain pulls the oil up and "sprays" it onto the timing chain. I park sideways on an incline (angled with passenger side up) to allow more cars in my driveway. If you did this enough, during a cold start situation, it's possible that while the engine would have oil, the chain would not be oiled enough or at all. I don't know, just throwing it out there based on what I saw in the chain case.

LukeaTron

That is interesting and a little concerning as my parking situation is similar, though the side to side angle is not very steep at all. Maybe 5 degrees off of horizontal.

Regarding the warranty claims, if you save your receipts for the oil and record the mileage when you change it that's enough to keep the warranty valid. This is mandated by law so there's not much the dealer could do to fight it.

Do you have pictures of anything? Is it strange that I get excited about trying to figure out what made things break?

PACman

Sounds like a normal car enthusiast/engineer to me.

Miamicarfan

503TSX:

2 Questions:

1) Are you the original owner of the car? If not, how many miles did the car have when you bought it?

2) You mention that Toyota and Lexus have "non inteference engines". What are these and how are they different from Honda engines?

LukeaTron

I can answer #2 for you. An interference engine means that at some point in the rotation, the valves physically occupy space that the pistons do at another point in the rotation. This enables then engine designers to arrange things more compactly and keep things at more desirable angles. When everything this is working as it's supposed to, there are no disadvantages. However, if the cam timing gets significantly off, typically by a total failure of the cam timing mechanism (the cam chain in the case of the TSX), the pistons can contact the valves. Since these are both made of metal and most likely moving very fast when it happens, the outcome is usually a violent disagreement about who will be getting out of the way.

Timing chains are considered very, very reliable though it's extremely uncommon for one to fail, which is what makes this thread so interesting.

503TSX

Lukea has the answer for #2. Generally, the "high performance" engines or engines with a wide bore are interference engines. Honda is pretty infamous for it, as with a bigger bore, the pistons have to travel less, making it easier for higher RPM balancing... or that's my understanding anyways. Of course a bigger bore also gives you more room for bigger valves, etc...

As for #1. I have owned the vehicle since it was about 22mi old. Brand spanking new.

Either way. I'm not exactly holding honda/acura responsible, but I am not the only person who had a timing chain issue between the Accords, RSX, CRV's etc. I just wanted to give everyone a heads up. Impressively enough them guys actually left enough room to do much of the maintenance required without contorting yourself too much. would have been a PITA either way, but much better without the valve tap.

LukeaTron

So your saying getting to the timing chain wasn't that bad? Can you give a brief synopsis of what it took to do so?

503TSX

sorry been out for a bit busy with kid and gf ...

The very basics after you set up and set engine to TDC...

1. remove serpentine belt
2. remove engine mount on passenger side
3. remove valve cover (you'll want to replace the gasket)
4. remove Crankshaft pulley (PITA, you WILL need special tool $20)
5. remove VTC solenoid (about 3" down from the top, middle of timing chain cover) PITA, just wiggle and fanaggle out...
6. remove ~14 timing cover bolts. Keep them in order, as they are different sizes
7. remove tensioner, chain, and guides(teflon on guides wearing are one of the main root causes for failure). The book says to compress the tensioner, turn the crank in reverse and the tensioner should compress, then insert a pin into the hole(paper clip should work)
8. important!!! on the new honda/acura chain, there are 4 discolored links(they will line up with the cam markings) and a dot on the chain (lines up with the dot on the crank) you must put them in so it matches or your timing will be off.
9. Important!!! when you install the tensioner, do NOT remove the pin. from my experience with the old one, it's a PITA to compress again if not installed.

After that, scrape all the hondabond off, put new ones on and reverse of removal.

there is room under there to do all the work, the only 'extra' or difficult stuff we found was the torx shoulder bolt on the tensioner arm(teflon) just bad place and hard to get bit in there etc. I also had to remove the front bumper to take the crank off due to the amount of torque involved and not wanting to use (break any more) any extensions.

moda_way

^^Did you take pics?

FYI you mentioned teflon wearing as root cause. Technically, oil starvation is the root cause. As I've talked to a BUNCH of Honda and Acura mechanics (due to friendly associations), all have mentioned that in nearly every case, the timing chain issue was due to oil starvation. Oh, they rarely see it even on Honda's normal oil change schedule. The important part is making sure you don't run a drop low on oil.

curls

FYI if the car is a manual transmission, getting the crank pulley off requires nothing more than a helper (to put car in 6th and hold the brakes down), a few impact extensions (stronger and less prone to shattering!), and a breaker bar and the handle from your jack (for leverage).

I was able to get my crank pulley bolt off with this setup -- the jack handle made the effective lever length of the breaker bar about 4-5' long, and with most of my body weight into it, it popped loose with a resounding BANG. Sounds a lot worse than it is though... everything was fine, just a very loud noise.

503TSX

unfortunately, i didn't get a 6mt, and that dang bolt is very tight...

Na, didn't get the opportunity to take any pictures as I was a bit more concerned with getting the car back up and running... I hear that oil starvation is the main cause as well, but if you do a search on google, you'll see many accounts of other 2.4L motors that have had timing chain stretch issues as well on CRV's, Accord, etc, some within 40k even. The only problem I have with the chain issue is that it is too thin, and not as robust as it could have been. you don't see this issue with V8's because of their double roller design, making it 2x harder (at least) to stretch, and Honda is one of the first companies to put a chain on a 4cyl dohc motor...

meh, either way, it's over for me. I just wanted to throw out that Honda also called the 1st or 3rd gear clutch pack shredding abuse when it first happened, and then had to extend warranties for their 5at trannies on all their TL/CL models a year later, so it's not like honda is a perfect company.

Portlymd

This week I experienced the same problem. Timing chain is getting replace as I write this. I fear it was caused by Oil starvation...

jjkmdaiker

73k miles on a '04 AT. Threw a P0341, started running like crap. Towed to the dealer (40 miles! ouch). Stretched chain, worn guides, new VVT solenoid, $1800. Gets put on tomorrow.

What's the best way to run this up the Acura ladder? I change my own oil, I check it in-between changes, it's never been low. My drive everyday is easy on the car (almost all highway, 10 miles, get it warm every time).

Ideas?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

^^
Sorry to hear about the problem. What oil do you use and how often do you change the oil?

nbtx

The DOHC 1.9 liter Saturn (beginning in 1991) has a chain. The dealer showroom exhibit had a sectioned engine for the salesman to point at and ridicule the Asian vehicles which all had rubber band cam belts. Good sales point.

FWIW, it looks like Honda didn't do their homework if chain failures are a problem.

Miamicarfan

A chain failure at only 73000 miles??? This is starting to worry me. And the oil was never low on the car? It did not have oil burning problem that some 2004 TSX owners have complained about?

Miamicarfan

Also, how many miles did you usually go between oil changes? Did you ever do 7500 or 10000 miles between oil changes? The maintenance manual does state you can do it.

04TSX RIP

ARGH. My 04 just stopped last week and after several hours looking at it, the shop thinks its an issue with the timing chain.

I only have 38K on the car. Yes, I'm the original owner. No, I never went 10K before an oil change. Reading the manual in the beginning I was struck by that line, but maintained the changes - mostly at the dealership between 3 and 5 without ever having a problem with burning.

How do I start the ball rolling with a good will repair when its most likely a complete swap for another engine (faster, cheaper, etc)?

The minimum for that is 3K while ripping the engine apart and re-boring is targeted at 8K.

38K? THIS IS NUTS!!!

Miamicarfan

04TSX RIP:

When you say the car just stopped on you, what do you mean?

Does it mean you were driving down the street and car just died on you and left you stranded or was it just one day that you tried to start and it did not start at all? How exactly did it happen?

After it happened, does the car still start or does it not start at all?

04TSX RIP

Car was parked in an underground garage. Attendant brought it up, I jumped in, drove it up the (steep) ramp out about half a block long. And right before the street entrance, it cut out.

I coasted back down, after trying to start it a few times. Parked it overnight as it was after 6pm and I had to pick up kids from daycare. Came back next morning, inspected fuel pump, oil, etc, nothing was wrong. Got towed to a garage. (First time there, but first time with serious out of warranty problem too)

They spent 3 hours looking it over. Found nothing wrong. They figured it was electronic, etc. Towed it to Acura dealer.

They spent a solid morning running diagnostics. Finally figured out that it was a timing chain issue. They don't know how bad the damage is, but considering the engine completely stopped, their pretty sure its bad.

Rough estimate repair - $8K or more
Buy rebuilt engine - min $2500 from salvage

I've changed oil b/t every 3 and 5K. (Sorry I believed the owner's manual about the 5 to 10K, but not that much!)

I haven't gone to my insurance yet, but I'm just in shock. I got the quote on Sat am, and the shop is going to call around looking for an engine on Monday am. IF they can find one!

I'm just in shock. Reading all of the posts, I could see IF I had been letting the oil go, then MAYBE this could happen. But so many other things would happen before the timing chain if there wasn't enough oil.

The idea that some have raised of the car being parked on an angle is "interesting". It doesn't seem to be possible after through technical (physics) analysis as the bottom of the chain lifts the oil and that portion would be fed regardless.

Besides, IF my car was on an angle in the garage, it would have only been THAT time. I RARELY have to let an attendant take my car in any garage. AND most of the time, my car parked nice and flat, either on my driveway or in one of the various buildings I've worked over the past 5 years.

Question - Is it likely that Acura would do a "good will" repair/replace on this?

I'm pretty sure I can pull out most of the service records. Most were with the same dealer, except for the last 2 oil changes... Jiffy Lube. yeah, yeah. I know. But 3 kids coming in 4 years means you try to save money at every chance.

I had 2 Accords prior to this and both ran well into the 120K range. I was planning to do the same for my TSX and to treat it good to make that happen.

Any thoughts?

Miamicarfan

Did you check the oil level after the car died on you coming out of the garage?

If you checked it, where was the level in relation to the 2 marks on the dipstick?

How long before the car died on you had you changed the oil with Jiffy Lube?

04TSX RIP

Yeah, I checked everything I could the next morning before calling the truck. Oil and every other fluid. Fuses, anything I could check via the owner's manual.

Oil was just above the bottom of the 2 marks. (Yes, low.)

Latest JiffyLube was slightly over 3,400.

valeratj

Is this issue limited to 04 year models?

Miamicarfan

So the last Jiffy Lube oil change occurred several months before the car broke down?

Also, after the last oil change at Jiffy Lube, do you remember checking the oil level right away. Do you remember where the level was in relation to the two marks on the dipstick?

When you say "slighly over 3400", you meant that you traveled 3400 miles after the last Jiffy Lube oil change until car broke down right?

04TSX RIP

Yes, the last oil change happened several months ago. I think it was early last fall. I can't remember exactly as the sticker is in the window of the car and the receipt is in the glovebox, but I'm fairly certain that it was early in the fall of 08. (Let's be clear, I was under the impression that it was an electrical failure and really didn't have a clue.)

Where the level was last fall? No definite idea. It would have to be "fine", or else I would have remembered it not being right. Did I check it? Yes, just like I checked all my fluids after paying someone very little money to do some very essential work.

And yes, I traveled more than 3,400 but less than 3,500 miles since than.

miner

If it does get 'goodwilled' you will still most likely need to pay the labor costs.

curls

I would conveniently "leave out" the part about parking on a hill and even the jiffy Lube oil changes, and just approach it without mentioning those unless they specifically ask. The dealer might shy away from any goodwill gestures if you bring up the fact that you intentionally took it elsewhere.

Sucks to hear that its happened to you though. Did the garage diagnose it as a snapped or a skipped timing chain? Either awy if you weren't revving too high at the time, you MIGHT only have to replace the chain + tensioner, which is well under $1K. However, it'd be hard to know if any internal damage such as bent valves happened, and you'd be chancing it. I'd take the goodwill route for now, see what happens out of that, and if they absolutely 100% won't do it even after you talk to Acura Customer Relations (1-800 number is on here somewhere), then look at taking it to an independent, trustworthy mechanic to have them diagnose the bent valve possibility and replace the timing chain + tensioner if necessary/possible.

04TSX RIP

FYI - I gave up on this fix. The dealership was focused on making their cut. While they said Acura was willing to goodwill the parts, it was only whatever parts were damaged. Thus the engine would have been broken down, piece by piece.

This labor intense effort would have quickly racked up plenty of hours and those would not have required the more experienced mechs. Thus after conferring with a few mods who confirmed that thought, I asked the shop if following the repair if they were willing and ready to stand behind their work.

Simply put, would they honor their own repairs for 10,000 miles. That's it. Not asking for other materials that would need repair through normal use. They refused. Despite asking for ANY warranty of work, they refused.

Now I asked again about parts. Why wouldn't Acura pay for a new/salvaged engine to be swapped in - as the dealership team previously suggested? The dealership claimed that Acura would not allow them to do so.

Needless to say, it all smelled fishy.

After a lengthy consultation and further discussion with the "service" team, I came to the conclusion that is wasn't worth it. A repair that cost a minimum of the estimated $3750 "for labor only", which was focused on only replacing parts that "needed" to be replaced was uncomfortable enough. But add in the lack of any work guaranty; add in the fact that this job would be used as a "training" exercise by the newer mechs; and finally general unease with the lack of customer focus lead me to say "no thank you".

04TSX RIP

So I sold it to a "guy". He used to own a used dealership. he still has the contacts and ability to take decent cars, fix them and resell them.

I felt good about getting the non-working car out of my hair. He paid for his own towing from the dealer and gave me cash so I wasn't worried about anything.

The dealership attempted to charge me for storage. Now, I'm not the toughest negotiator on the planet. I'm not a sales leader in ANY industry, but I don't understand how this served any purpose.

The guy met me the same day that I had several discussions with the dealer about the various options. It was the next day after I spoke to Acura. And having owned 2 Accords prior to my Acura, wouldn't it be wise of them to immediately start pitching me on a new/used car?

I know walking away from a $4K expense might make it seem like I don't have any cash, but seriously? They should know I do have cash in hand from the sale of the non-working vehicle. They should know that I now don't have a car.

Hmmm.... Ripe opportunity? Lend a loaner for a few days? (I didn't want nor would I have accepted it, but...) Anything? Follow up call from Service manager? "What could we have done better?" "What was the top reason you decided to go in that direction?"

Nada. So a word to the wise.

Karen Radley Acura? Don't go there. I'm not. Ever. Nor are any of my friends.

gogozy

sorry to hear the story 04TSX RIP.
as i also have a low mileage (60k km) 04 TSX, and i am worry too. there is a whine from the engine bay, and i suspect it came the water pump. maybe i shall pick a shop and change the pump, timming chain and refresh some freon altogether.....