rx280

My local dealership has done more than a dozen oil changes on my ’04 over the last four years. After the most recent change, I discovered that the technician had put in a bit too much oil. (That hadn’t happened before; slight underfilling had.) This most recent change was done about 6 weeks ago, and the dipstick reading (with engine cold) has been constant since then. The oil comes up to the twist in the dipstick, which I’d estimate to be about a half-quart above the Full mark (the upper hole in the stick). My first thought was that a half-quart overfill isn’t anything to worry about, but I still wonder about it. (There’s been no discernable change in how the engine runs, and fuel economy is unchanged.)
The basic question is whether the TSX engine, given its type, size and oil capacity, could be adversely affected, even a bit, by having a half-quart of excess oil in it for a few thousand miles (until the next oil change). Responses from people with engine/oil expertise would be especially helpful.

Jim Holloman

In general,

Oil levels are the inverse of tire pressure; a little too much is never good. The damage occurs when the rods, that might be spinning at up to 7,000 RPM's makes contact with the oil. It slings oil everywhere, including straight into the cylinder wells. It also adds drag to the engine and places extra stress on the rods. It can cause the oil to foam and be filled with air (sort of like beating egg whites). It other words, it can do some nasty things to your engine.

Many owner's manuals will caution against overfilling. I haven't checked the TSX manual, but I do not recall seeing an explicit warning. You might want to check.

The service supervisor at my local Acura dealer has told me that you are suppose to check the oil level immediate after turning off the engine. THAT IS COMPLETELY OPPOSITE to what the TSX manual says, to what the ODY manual says, and to what every other owner's manual that I can recall reading had to say; Pontiac, Ford, Buick, and Cadillac.

Now, in reality, it might depend upon your driving habits and terrain. If I was in Boston or San Francisco, I would be very concerned. If I was in the plains of Texas and also drove like grandma, then I wouldn't be too concerned.

Since you probably don't drive like grandma, I would take it back to the dealer and ask them to drain enough oil to make the level no higher than the high mark on the dip stick. An oil level up to 1/4 of the distance to the bottom mark is fine. As you know, the dip stick has too marks; a low one and a high one. These are limits, or maximums. They are not like speed limits. Neither should ever be ignored, or exceeded.

Be sure you are on reasonably level ground and let the engine sit for at least 5 minutes when checking the oil level. I generally check it in the mornings when I check tire pressure. Mornings, before the car is started, is a good time to check both. The 5 minute delay allows the oil in the top end to drain to the crankcase. For an illustrated example, pour a quart of oil into an engine and then sit the bottle down. Come back the next day and see how much oil drained down from the sides of the bottle.

I take 4 qts. of Mobile 1, or AMS Oil, to the dealership with written instructions in a plastic sheet protector stuck under the passenger's windshield wiper and instruct them to use my oil and only my oil. I then top it off the next morning. The TSX holds 4.4 qts. with a filter change. Even then, the dealer once overfilled my car by a small amount. They apparently added some of their oil. I now check the oil level before leaving the dealership. I take a roll of paper towels with me, as well as some hand cleaner (409 will do).

One reason I am not likely to buy a Toyota, or a Lexus, is that Toyota claims, or did claim at some point in time, that if you did not have the oil changed at one of THEIR DEALERS, then you warranty is void. That was when they were having a lot of V6 engine failures due to sludge -- apparently caused by hot spots in the engine cooking the oil.

Oops, looks like you might be near Boston.

davidspalding

I recall in years past the recommendation to let the engine warm up (5-10 minutes was sufficient), then shutting off, letting it sit 5-15 minutes (letting oil settle down), then checking the oil on a level surface.

I like your idea of telling the station/dealer tech to put in the 4 qts then adding the other 1/2 qt yourself. I was taking my Jeep to a place for a few years, one of the techs would insist that the 5 qts I provided[1] wasn't enough, I needed another quart. I always smiled, thanked him for his recommendation and left. I had 2-3 references (Haynes, Owner's Manual, online references) specifying 5 qts, only 1 (Chilton) claiming it "could take up to 6 qts." Of course, after the warmup, let sit routine, the oil would measure near the MAX mark on the dipstick.

[1] Buy my own synthetic at a discount, and provide it to the shops.

shmork53

This is a lot of work to tell the dealer to fill up the engine with oil to the right level. Some might argue its not as much work as doing it yourself, but i beg to differ. I always do my own changes; have since i was 16. Not only do I get the stisfaction of not giving the stealership anymore of my money, I know its done right the first time. Also I enjoy to do it, and I get to do my own inspection on everything like fluid levels, belts, hoses, etc. In fact I just got some oil to do my wifes car and I am about to go do it.

moda_way

They drain the oil and some have pressurized systems that they type in the number of quarts to add and that's what it puts in there. If they drained it thoroughly, you should be fine. If they over filled it, then it needs to be drained out, but make sure you do the method of checking listed above.

Jim Holloman

Another reason I do it is to help ensure that the recommended weight is being used. I have had more than one technician tell me that the TSX uses 5W-20 just like the TL. Then, when I correct them, the reply is "Oh, I always check the oil cap". But, the reply wasn't convincing enough to make me a believer; especially living in an area when incompetent workmanship is the norm. I firmly believe that if the 5W-20 oil supply was within reach, and the 5W-30 oil supply required a few extra steps, then my TSX would, sooner or later, be filled with 5W-20. It is almost guaranteed.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The reason some dealers were using 5W-20 instead of 5W-30 was due to an error in their service manual. It has since been corrected (we hope...). See page 4 in the March 2007 TSB. http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/B070300.PDF

davidspalding

I'm in of someone who remembers all these items from the myriad collection of TSBs. Maybe I'll put 'em all on my laptop so that I can read them while the movers shuffle boxes and furniture out of one nest and into my new nest.

I"m with you Jim, that's why I've balked at someone saying, "We prefer to use our own oil." ("Yeah, right, but who owns the car? The owner prefers to use HIS own oil." Never said that, though.) I usually just assure the service mgr that saving $50 on my oil gets spent on labor doing something else for me. I know what you mean about laziness and incompetence. I used to specify a 5-way tire rotation for my Jeep (which had a conventional spare) and a couple of times I caught the Costco tire shop (which does it for free when you buy your tires there) doing a 4-way anyway. I told the manager if I caught them doing that again, I'd call the Washington headquarters, not him. Oh, one of the AAA places forgot to put a lug nut on a wheel (the Jeep again) after some major brake, hub, etc., work.

weeeerd

Exactly why I would never let Costco or some AAA place touch my vehicle. But then again, I'm sure they work on Acura vehicles all day long.

ck123

ive had this exact same problem witht he dealership i bring to. i let them change it twice and each time its prolly overfilled by 3/4 quart. i stopped bringing my cars to them, i do it myself each time.

davidspalding

I learned years ago that dealerships have no special powers or secret knowledge for things like oil changes and checking belts and hoses that other, more economical service shops lack. Feel free to keep paying a premium for someone to do something I could do myself in 20 minutes (I used to).

psteng19

Shoot, I just switched to 5w-20 Mobil-1 based on that misinfo on my last oil change.
Should I switch back to 5w-30 next change or do it immediately?

rx280

Update: I brought the car to the dealership on Thursday and told the service manager that I’d been consistently finding the oil at the twist in the dipstick ever since the most recent oil change. He immediately summoned one of the technicians and told him to bring the car into the shop and check the oil.
Once the car was inside, he took me out into the shop, where the technician withdrew and reinserted the dipstick several times, showing it to me after each withdrawal and suggesting that the oil level looked fine. The car had been driven 15 miles before being pulled into the shop, so the engine was hot, and where the oil was on the stick was tough for me to tell. All of the checking I’d done was with the engine stone cold – having been sitting for a minimum of 90 minutes and usually for 8 hours – so getting a distinct reading wasn’t a problem (especially as the oil “aged,” darkening just a bit).
I said something like this: “Guys, I’ve had this car four and a half years and I must’ve checked the oil 200 times. Before the last oil change I’d NEVER found the oil above the Full hole on the stick; since the last oil change I’ve checked it about 10 times and found it well above the Full hole every time. I think that’s pretty definitive.” Nevertheless, the technician and service manager kept looking at me skeptically (which was, needless to say, annoying).
The service manager asked me what I wanted them to do and suggested that they drain maybe a quart of oil and then let me add as much oil as I wanted. We eventually agreed on what the technician suggested: drain the engine completely, to see how much was in there, then refill it to roughly the lower hole on the stick, leaving the topping off to me.
After maybe 10 minutes of waiting in the service manager’s office, the technician signaled that he was finished, and the service manager and I went back out there. The technician announced that only 4 quarts had come out of the engine and pointed to a jug of used oil on an adjacent bench. (I didn’t notice any gradations on the jug, so just looking at the jug didn’t really tell me anything.) This time the skeptical looks were mine. He refilled it to roughly the halfway point between the two holes. I’ve since topped it off to the Full hole.
By the way, they dispense their oil from regular quart bottles; there’s no metering.
All I could say to the service manager as we walked through the shop, heading back to his office, was: “There’s only one thing I’m sure about right now, and that is that since my last oil change, there’s been about a half-quart more oil in the car than there had ever been before. Whether that was the RIGHT amount, I don’t know, but I find it hard to believe that being at the twist in the dipstick is indicative of the proper amount.”
I guess that ends the saga, guys. Despite what happened at the dealership, I’m still all but positive that there was too much oil in the car. Let’s just hope it did no real harm.

davidspalding

I don't check my oil cold, I know I've read many places NOT to do that. For one, a cold engine probably has the oil all settled in it, and will read high. I suspect the rationale is that you want to measure the oil with a fair amount of it slung up around the motor, as when it's operating. If you put in only enough that it reads between MIN and MAX with all of the oil settled to the bottom, you could have too little oil.

I can understand the service manager and technician being annoyed, bitterly, if you told them you check your oil other than the recommended way. I'd bet they felt you made them do a lot of work just to make you happy. Doing the thing in my 2006 and the 2007 manual, page 234 indicates you check the oil with the engine warm, after stopping it for a few minutes. Under "Changing the oil and filter," steps 10 and 11 clearly state, run the engine for a couple of minutes, let sit for several minutes, then measure. The "Low Oil Pressure Indicator" section has the same thing, turn off the engine and wait a few minutes. I'm sure you have your reasons to doing it cold, but the OM recommended method is what a service manager is going to use as a baseline.

Still, you said you've checked the oil consistently for years, and after this last oil change it read higher, so I have to accept your presumption ... more than usual was added. The real question is ... was it being filled low before?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The service manual lists 4.4 qt for oil change with filter, but the actual oil system capacity is 5.6 qt. How much oil to put in varies depending on how people change the oil / check the oil level, or the size of oil filter being used. Most service places won't take the time to allow a complete drain before reinstalling the drain plug. Therefore, ~4.4 qt sounds about right.

I personally just let it drain while I perform other tasks during the routine maintenance and I consistently have to put in 5 qt of oil to bring the oil level to the top hole. Also, it's hard to get an accurate oil level reading from the dipstick without letting it sit for a while, as the dipstick seems to be in the same oil galley where the oil is drained from the cylinder head.

Additionally, it also depends on the quality of the anti-drainback valve inside the oil filter. Most filters including the new ones from Honda (most likely made by Honeywell) will drain the oil out into the pan after a few hours, which will change the oil level reading if you check it in the morning after sitting overnight. This is the same reason if you let it sit during the oil change, there is no mess from the oil filter.

peterjedi

I put 5.5 quarts in my last oil change. I checked the dip stick in the morning and just after I shut off the engine. There's not much difference between where the oil is marked. My oil is marked a little above where the stick curls. I assume this is about 1/2 or 3/4 quarts above the full marker (second hole). I've been driving for about 1,200 miles. Should I still drain the 1/2 or 3/4's quart of oil? I was hoping my engine would just burn up the 1/2 to 3/4's quart of oil, but so far this has not happened.

I spoke to a friend who knows alot about cars. He told me that if you don't rev very high then I should not worry about it. The high reving will cause more presure on the seals, which could cause long term problems.

What do you guys/gals think? I also mever rev above 3,000 RPMs.